In the future I will try harder columnists, but for now I will keep taking the easy road as I attempt to FJM
Murray Chass.
THE DARK SIDE TO OVERTAKE CY YOUNG AWARD
The standard for wins by an American League pitcher was lowered to 16 last year. It is about to be lowered even further – to 13. That’s the number of games Felix Hernandez won this past season, and I expect he will be announced Thursday as the A.L. Cy Young award winner.
The Cy Young award is simply awarded to the best pitcher in each league with each team getting two voters from the BBWAA. There is no set standard for wins. Greinke did not lower any mythical "win standard" he simply won last year because he did everything better than any pitcher in the league, except he won 3 less games than the leader. Big. F-in. Deal.
I could be wrong, of course, and I hope I am, but if I am, I will be surprised. By the time you read this, you may know if I am right or wrong.
By the time I read your second paragraph I knew one thing, you make no sense. I also have to imagine there is a better way of writing that first sentence here but I could be wrong, of course, although, I don't hope I am, but if I am, I will be surprised.
I have no inside information on which to base my belief. I have not surveyed the voters. I don’t even know who the voters are, and I wouldn’t try to find out. I base my belief on what has been floating around about Hernandez and his season statistics.
So basically you are saying you have no basis for your belief besides what has been floating around, yet we should still proceed to read the rest of your non-blog blog post. I'm now intrigued, what has been floating around Murray? Tell me, tell me, tell me!
The Seattle right-hander had the league’s lowest earned run average, 2.27; the lowest opposing batting average, .212; the most innings pitched, 249 1/3, and missed by two of having the most strikeouts (232). What he didn’t have was wins. When he won his last start of the season, he finished above .500 at 13-12.
Those statistics that have been "floating around" tell me that Felix Hernandez has been quite good this year, you've listed 5 important statistics and he's essentially lead in 4 of them. Sounds pretty good to me. Oh wait! I forgot about the Cy Young award rule book! Let's check it out:
6.01 (a) When voting for the Cy Young award, each voter must use 5 arbitrary statistics.
(b) One of those statistics must be wins.
(c) Each of the four non-wins statistics shall be worth 5% totaling 20%. The remaining 80% should be used to properly weigh wins.
Just a few years ago a pitcher with a 13-12 record would never have been considered for the Cy Young award. But last year Zack Greinke won the A,L, [sic] award with 16 victories and Tim Lincecum won his second straight National League award with 15 wins.
Just a few years ago there simply wasn't a pitcher who was a viable candidate who had 13 wins. You have made it your responsibility to fight to bring back a win standard for the Cy Young Award that never even existed. You are delusional.
The development, I believe, is directly related to the growing influence of the new-fangled statistics which readers of this site know I have no use for, a fact that sends stats-freak denizens of the blogosphere into a stats-freak frenzy.
If we use a new-fangled statistics like WAR for pitchers, Cliff Lee and Justin Verlander would finish ahead of Felix Hernandez. If we use another new-fangled statistic like FIP, Cliff Lee, Francisco Liriano and Justin Verlander would finish ahead of Felix Hernandez.
Certainly Felix Hernandez ranks well in those new-fangled statistics but the main reasoning behind voting him for the Cy Young has more to do with the standard statistics that you've already mentioned he’s lead the league in! Since the Cy Young award has to do with personal achievement, us stats-freak denziens of the blogospehere tend to focus on what he had control of, not what the team had influence on, meaning wins.
“Look out, he’s at it again” the cry will go out, as if a carrier of the black plague were loose in the land. And a flood of e-mail messages will pour in to my inbox calling me vile names (they are only the best educated and articulate of responders) and telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Can you blame them?
But I do know one thing. I know that Roy Halladay, a fellow who knows something about pitching, agrees with me.
Besides his otherwise impressive statistics, the best argument Hernandez has going for him is his lack of run support. Elias Sports Bureau says the Mariners’ 3.06 runs per Hernandez start was the A.L.’s lowest. The Mariners say in Hernandez’s 12 losses, the team scored a total of seven runs while he was in the game.
Do the Mariners "say" this, or is it simply fact? Yea, it's a fact.
The best argument Hernandez has going for him isn't his lack of run support, it's that statistically (advanced or traditional) he's been the best pitcher in the American League.
I accept that those figures represent terrible run support and would make it difficult for any pitcher to win. But not impossible. I have long believed that good pitchers find a way to win.
It's not a matter of acceptance. The fact that the the Mariners scored 7 runs in 12 of his losses is evidence that the reason Felix only had 13 wins was because his team stunk, something completely out of his control.
Murray, do you also accept that evolution exists? Or do you have two examples that illustrate otherwise?
Two examples:
Dude, don't tell me you are going to try...
Steve Carlton compiled a 27-10 record in 1972 for a Phillies team that otherwise had a 32-87 record. Carlton led the league with a 1.97 e.r.a., 30 complete games, 310 strikeouts and 346 1/3 innings pitched.
Murry Dickson was a 20-game winner for one of the most inept teams in history, the 1951 Pirates, whose 64-90 record belied their level of talent. The only reason they didn’t finish last was Dickson’s 20 wins.
This is better than arguing against evolution, but not by much. It's true that both Carlton and Dickson played on putrid teams, but in 1972 the Phillies scored 3.8 runs per game for Carlton (in an era where less runs were scored) and in 1951 the Pirates scored 5 runs per game for Dickson. In 2010 the Mariners scored 3.1 runs per game for Felix.
Moreover, in 1951 Dickson lost 16 games and pitched out of the bullpen 10 times getting 4 wins there. If you take out Dickson's decisions in relief he's suddenly a 16-15 pitcher, not really a good example of a pitcher winning on a bad team, and certainly not better than Felix.
Both Carlton and Dickson had more run support than Hernandez, but both found ways to win in spite of the teams they played for.
In your attempt to show that pitchers find ways to win despite run support you showed us 2 pitchers who got more run support than Felix Hernandez, nice going!
Dickson was actually no better at finding ways to win and one transcendent year by Steve Carlton isn't grounds for a blanket statements that pitchers "find" ways to win, regardless of the team they pitch on.
This game has been played for a long, long time, if Murry Dickson (who?) is the best example you can come up with to prove your non-existent point, well, then you don't really have a point.
In a conference call with baseball writers to discuss his Cy Young award Tuesday, Halladay was asked about Hernandez and the Cy Young award given his low victory total.
Was Halladay asked about Felix and the AL Cy Young award or was he asked about Felix and the AL Cy Young award given his low victory total? One is a question, the other is a pointed question designed to get an answer you want out of someone.
“It’s tough,” Halladay said. “Felix’s numbers are very, very impressive, but ultimately they look at how guys are able to win games. Sometimes the run support isn’t there, but you find ways to win games. Guys who are winning deserve a strong look no matter what Felix’s numbers are. When teams bring pitchers over, ultimately they want to win games.”
When asked about Felix and the Cy Young award given his low victory total Halladay responded how they look at the players, not how he looks at the players. If Halladay truly agreed with you like you claim then he would have hated the Phillies' pickup of Roy Oswalt at the trading deadline. You know, because he was 6-12, if he was a good pitcher he wouldn't be 6-12 (2.3 runs per game on the Astros). Also, Roy Halladay must have been unimpressed with Cole Hamels' season since he was only 12-11(3.7 runs per game).
In fact, now that I think about it, no wonder the Phillies didn't make it to the World Series, their pitchers don't know how to win!
But in this new age of formulas for every action on a baseball field, acronyms have replaced wins. Mythical replacement players have become more important than wins and losses, unless the wins and losses are adjusted by other formulas.
If you prefer to measure players solely on a arbitrary statistic created in the 19th century that's your prerogative. But don't say that the "new age of formulas" has replaced wins. The purpose of these “new age formulas” is actually to focus on wins, not take them away. If you cared to get to know any of this rather than just making fun of them with one quick brush stroke then you would know this.
Probably the most visible sign of the metric takeover of baseball coverage is the frequency of its use in The New York Times, for whom I covered baseball for four decades with nary a mention of Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Average.
If this "takeover" is so bad, why are so many people joining? You really just sound ignorant, Murray. The whole (baseball) world is going one way and you keep screaming for us to turn the car around. I bet when you started covering baseball four decades ago there were people complaining that a certain group of players were "taking over" this game.
That mouthful – or eyeful – of a metric, according to Tyler Kepner of the Times, tries to calculate each player’s overall contribution on defense.
Really? Mouthful of a metric? What are you talking about?
It's not fair to improperly define a statistic and then put it down. Wins were created in the 19th Century and are awarded to starting pitchers who pitch 5 innings and leave the game with the lead. That's the legitimate definition of a win, it's completely arbitrary and not a sufficient means to judge a pitcher. Just because a group of people defined wins a particular way hundreds of years ago does not mean it's the end all be all statistic in 2010.
I don't need to go into the details involved in these advanced fielding metrics, but let's just say they go beyond the scope of "eyefuls".
The Times has increasingly used statistically-based columns, often at the expense, I believe, of the kind of baseball coverage it used to emphasize. But Kepner’s use of “Total Zone Total Fielding” was the clincher, demonstrating that the Times has gone over to the dark side.
In the past writers would report on who they "felt" was a better player by arbitrary measures. Now writers can report on who "is" a better player with empirical evidence. Which do you prefer?
Kepner, the Times’ national baseball writer, used the statistic in reporting that metric men were critical of the selection of Derek Jeter, the Yankees’ shortstop, as the Gold Glove shortstop. The Total Zone formula, Kepner wrote, rates Jeter 59th, or last, among major league shortstops.
I'm going to go ahead now and assume that you don't "accept" this.
“Within an hour of Tuesday’s announcement of the American League Gold Glove awards,” he wrote as he planted both feet firmly on the dark side,
Good one, very clever.
“editors at Baseball-Reference.com summed up the general reaction to Derek Jeter’s latest victory at shortstop: ‘We can’t believe it either,’ a notation briefly on the site said.”
You don't disagree with Kepner, Baseball-Reference.com or the Metric Men in their claim that Jeter didn't deserve the Gold Glove, but you disagree with their process.
Rather than use your eyes, fielding percentages, and the advanced fielding data you would rather someone just use their eyes and fielding percentage? You do realize that if Jeter fields one ball cleanly on opening day and then doesn't try to get to any other balls at shortstop that his fielding percentage would be perfect, right? You do realize that using all the information at your disposal is actually a good thing, right?
If Hernandez doesn’t win the Cy Young award, I suspect the metric men will come out in critical force.
You seem to be coming out in more critical force of the metric men than they will ever come out in critical force of anything.
But to me, this is the wrong year for Hernandez, I think he’s the best pitcher in the league, and I think he should have won the award last year.
Wait, have you had a sudden change of heart?
But not this year,
Dammit!
not with 13 wins, whatever his other statistics, whatever his run support.
Good reasoning. If Felix Hernandez didn't give up an earned run all season you would gladly not give him the award. That's fair.
“Do wins count anymore? I don’t think they count as much,” said Jack O’Connell, secretary-treasurer of the Baseball Writers Association, whom I call the curator of the post-season awards.
Do you always converse in such short sentences?
“I think these stats will play into it. I don’t like that.
Agreed. I just hate it when voters use effective measures of a players' performance when voting on awards.
Some say wins don’t count. Someone wrote recently that Bob Welch shouldn’t have won in 1990. He won 27 games.”
Someone also wrote that Obama took 1/10th of the Navy to India.
O’Connell said he thought wins started to become devalued in 2005 when Bartolo Colon won the award with 21 wins. “People complained that he won because of his wins,” O’Connell said.
Bartolo Colon 2005: 21-8 3.48 ERA, 222 2/3 IP, 157 SO, 1.159 WHIP, 4.4 B-Ref WAR, 2.80 FIP
Johan Santana 2005: 16-7 2.87 ERA, 231 2/3 IP, 238 SO, 0.971 WHIP, 6.3 B-Ref WAR, 3.75 FIP
I think they had plenty of reason to complain, no? Johan finished 1st in strikeouts and WHIP and 2nd in ERA and innings pitched, but lost to Colon because Colon had 5 more wins.
He agreed with me that Lincecum won last year with 15 wins because two St. Louis starters, Adam Wainwright (19 wins) and Chris Carpenter (17) split the vote. Wainwright received 12 first-place votes, Lincecum 11 and Carpenter 9. Lincecum had 100 points, Carpenter 94 and Wainwright 90.
“This could happen with Hernandez this year,” O’Connell said. “Sabathia and Price could split votes.
I suspect as long as these stats are out there people are going to use them.
How dare they do such a heinous act!
I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. But wins do matter.”
Umm, like 2 seconds ago you just said "I think these stats will play into it. I don’t like that."
The Yankees’ CC Sabathia won 21 games; no pitcher won 20 last year. Sabathia’s feat should count for something, but in the new age, the standard that stood for excellence for more than 100 years means nothing. It is ignored. It is not a factor.
Excuse me Murray but this is an award for 2010, what happened in 2009 is completely irrelevant. If you would like to create an award that goes to the pitcher with the most wins so that Sabathia's "feat should count for something" then create the Murray Chass Award for Pitching Excellence, by all means
The stats capellers know better and have better standards.
If by better standards you mean that we don’t rely on one statistic that has nothing to do with personal achievement when voting on an award for personal achievement then yes, we do know better and we do have better standards.
But know these facts about Hernandez:
He had to win his last start of the season to finish with a winning record.
Seventeen pitchers in the American League won more games than he did, and seven others won as many.
Those are facts, nice work! Other facts: Felix Hernandez was better than CC Sabathia in every statistical measure not named wins. Oh and just for kicks, Sabathia was 4th in the league in run support, felix was 62nd.
Final fact: you're website is a blog. Pwned!